Episode 14 - Kim Cuccia

Kim Cuccia joins JSL’s Vickie Hubbard for Episode 4 of Season 2 of Not Your Average DEI Podcast! Kim and Vickie discuss the value of supplier diversity programs in the legal industry and the importance of considering diverse-owned law firms for outside counsel opportunities.

Kim Cuccia is Senior Vice President, General Counsel, and Corporate Secretary for NiSource Inc. She provides leadership and oversight for all legal matters related to NiSource’s gas and electric utility operating companies in its six-state service area. Prior to her current role, Cuccia was Vice President and Deputy General Counsel, Legal Regulatory for NiSource.

Cuccia has been a member of NiSource’s legal department for 14 years. She previously served as General Counsel for Columbia Gas of Massachusetts, responsible for legal strategy and planning for the company during NiSource’s restoration effort in Greater Lawrence, Massachusetts. She also led the business team established to respond to the state investigations into the Merrimack Valley Incident.

Since joining NiSource, she has held positions of increasing responsibility including serving as chief counsel for all Columbia Gas Companies and leading the company’s safety management system (SMS) deployment.

Cuccia is a member and serves on the executive legal committee of the American Gas Association and various bar associations. She is active in NiSource’s diversity and inclusion efforts and joined the Leadership Council on Legal Diversity in 2021 pledging her commitment to increase diversity and equity in the legal profession. 

Transcript

0:00:00 - Vickie Hubbard
Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in to another episode of Not your Average DEI Podcast. My name is Vickie Hubbard, Chief Diversity Officer with JURISolutions Legal, also referred to as JSL, and my pronouns are she and her. I am super excited to welcome today's guest, Kim Cuccia, General Counsel with NiSource, for a fireside chat to discuss the value of supplier diversity programs in legal and the importance of considering diverse owned law firms for outside counsel opportunities. JSL is passionate about doing our part to fill the gap between diversity and legal and we firmly believe that one way this can be achieved by corporations is through the use of diverse owned law firms, by leveraging supplier diversity for supplier inclusion as a pathway to consideration for outside counsel opportunities. I am truly excited to welcome Kim to Not your Average DEI Podcast listeners. My first time meeting Kim was at the recent National Association of Minority and Women Owned Law Firm's Annual Meeting in Baltimore. Kim served on the General Counsel panel. My colleagues and I were immediately drawn to Kim's contributions to the discussion regarding the value of supplier diversity and the utilization of diverse owned law firms. I immediately invited Kim to our podcast and without knowing much about me, without knowing much about JSL, and because of her passion for diversity, equity and inclusion in the legal industry, Kim graciously said yes, of which I am sincerely grateful. 

A little about Kim. Kim Cuccia is Senior Vice President, General Counsel and Corporate Secretary for NiSource Incorporated. She provides leadership and oversight for all legal matters related to NiSource's gas and electric utility operating companies in this six states service area. Prior to her current role, Kim was Vice President and Deputy General Counsel, Legal Regulatory for NiSource. She has been a member of NiSource's legal department for more than 15 years. Since joining NiSource, Kim has held positions of increasing responsibility, including serving as Chief Counsel for all Columbia Gas companies and leading the company's safety management system deployment. Kim is a member and serves on the Executive Legal Committee of the American Gas Association and various Bar Associations. She's active in NiSource's diversity and inclusion efforts and joined the Leadership Council on Legal Diversity in 2021, pledging her commitment to increase diversity and equity in the legal profession. Everyone, let's all welcome Kim to the show. Hi Kim. 

0:03:02 - Kim Cuccia
Hey Vickie, I'm so excited to be here to talk with you about supplier diversity and legal and yes. My answer was immediately yes when we met at NAMWOLF and we'll get a little bit to that later, but I'm absolutely thrilled to be here. 

0:03:16 - Vickie Hubbard
I love, love, love, love, love to hear that. I've had a couple of conversations prior to today with Kim and she is such a delight. She has so much to share and I'm just excited to get to it. But before we delve into the topic of discussion today, of course you all know I'd like to start our episode off with a few icebreaker questions. So, cam, I have a couple of questions for you. Are you ready? I'm ready. Okay, so I shared with our listeners that you currently reside in Columbus, Ohio. Are you originally from Columbus? 

0:03:49 - Kim Cuccia
I am not Vickie, I've been in Columbus for 10 years. I actually grew up in New England around a lot of family growing up. I was the oldest cousin on one side and the younger cousin on the other side, so lots of kids, lots of aunts, lots of uncles, and what I would say is growing up in New England is special, especially on Cape Cod, where I specifically grew up and I am very much forever grateful for my roots. 

My mom was a school teacher. Education was very, very much a priority, no excuse for being behind in our studies. School came first, music came second, sports was always last. So I always sports was my favorite, so I always had to get all of the other things done so I could engage in sports and and directionally. I don't know that I always knew what I wanted to be when I grew up, but I had enough exposure and moderate exposure to things, a variety of different things, and so the right things sort of fell into the right place at the right time for me to create my own path going forward. And so one of the biggest things that I think about for my kids is exposing them to different experiences and different people so that they can gain perspective and have a sense of what the world has to offer as they choose their path, whether it's in Ohio or in New England or anywhere else in the world, whatever makes them happy mine and everybody else's kids. 

0:05:11 - Vickie Hubbard
Oh, I love all of that, all of that. So what sports did you play? 

0:05:15 - Kim Cuccia
So I played softball, soccer, basketball and golf in high school. 

0:05:21 - Vickie Hubbard
So, with your busy schedule, what do you like to do in your spread time? You play a little bit of golf for fun. 

0:05:29 - Kim Cuccia
Well, I play a little bit of golf for fun. What used to be a little known fact, but I've been using it as sort of my fun fact more increasingly, is that I get a lot of personal satisfaction in fly fishing. So, my outside of work I spend time with my family first and foremost, but the way that I sort of reconnect with myself is fly fishing. So there's not a lot of places in Ohio but there are a few, but mostly we'll go - we do an annual trip to Missouri and we go to New England where I grew up, but also a little bit in Vermont and then in Tennessee. 

0:06:11 - Vickie Hubbard
Okay, so Missouri. So, I'm from the Midwest, so are you referencing anywhere in the St Louis area, maybe the Ozarks or anywhere nearby them? 

0:06:20 - Kim Cuccia
Ozarks, yes, the Ozarks, and just like you would imagine it in the show it's very much that type of topography. But yes, just outside, about an hour outside of Branson, about an hour and a half outside of Springfields, roaring River State Park is a stocked fishery and my brother and my parents, we've taken our kids there for a number of years to learn how to fly fish so that they can actually catch things and it's fun from an early age. 

0:06:49 - Vickie Hubbard
So let's get into the reason why we're here Supplier diversity, the value of utilizing supplier diversity programs within legal and also the value of utilizing diverse owned law firms. Listeners, as I share, at the recent NAMWOLF Conference the acronym for the National Association of Minority and Women Owned Law Firms is NAMWOLF, and we attended the conference, we being JSL, we're Business Partners, longstanding business partners of NAMWOLF and Kim was on the general counsel panel and she shared so much that was in alignment with everything that we believe Then, one of the reasons why we, our firm, developed different service offerings to help fill the gap as it relates to diversity, equity and inclusion and legal, and we just had to get you on the show, Kim. So, I'm just excited to jump in here. But before we begin with that particular topic, I want you to share with our listeners a little bit about your trajectory to your current role as general counsel. You've been with NiSource for over 15 years, very impressive, very impressive, and I'm sure our listeners will be curious about you. Know what your experience has been. 

0:08:07 - Kim Cuccia
Yeah, thanks, Vickie. That's a good place to start. I've been pretty transparent with my experience of the company as I've been here for so long, and what I like to lead with is that I'm here because I want to be here not because I have to be. This has been such a tremendous learning environment for me on my professional trajectory and, very specifically, the utility industry is such an important industry it's great to be a part of because we get the privilege to deliver essential services to our customers and community and personally, that's something up until this point in my career I have found to be incredibly rewarding. So, my experience at NiSource has mostly been an incredibly supportive team, incredibly supportive leaders They've given me great opportunities who I've learned a lot from over the years and learned how to give other people opportunities, and I've learned from so many different types of people. But I think one of the things that's really sort of helped me get to this spot is that I have learned just as much from non-lawyers as I have learned from lawyers and, very specifically, what's meaningful to the business. The business folks don't need to know every in and out of a legal argument or analysis. They need to know what's relevant to them, and so, for the most part, it's been a tremendously great experience at NiSource, great trajectory allowing me to wear different hats in legal in the business, and people do ask how did I come into the organization as an intern and a brand new lawyer eventually and rise to the top, and I have never scripted that past. The right opportunities came along at the right time and my nature is to embrace what's presented. I love doing what I'm doing along my career path, even within the company. 

If I was doing something that I felt like I perhaps outgrown or I didn't enjoy, I would look for something else to do. I never thought I'd be a corporate lawyer. It sounds very boring. It also sounds like a job that people may go into that come from means which I did not, and so I needed to leverage my skills, and how that played out was being over-prepared, building relationships anywhere I could, taking on projects and assignments that most other people didn't want, and having some tremendous mentors and sponsors along the way, and a little bit of luck, which is maybe a topic for another podcast. But I truly do believe that you make your own luck, and so I think people are, generally speaking, are capable of great things and capable of rising to leadership, but having the right guidance and the right nudges along the way, I think, is key. 

So, very specifically, I shared with my last boss, who is now a very dear friend of mine, is that I wasn't necessarily interested in the general counsel role. I was interested in a business function, and she pushed me a little bit. She told me that she thought I would like it, that I could be good at it, but she was very clear about what she thought I had and didn't have that was right for the role. And then an unexpected opportunity came along and I was asked to fill in on an interim basis. I really had no idea what that was all about. I got into the job, I fell in love with it, I tossed my hat in the ring, and so one of the things that I'm very much committed to with my current leadership team is allowing them to learn along the way with me and demystifying what the role is, because, while I'm not planning on going anywhere anytime soon or too soon, I do feel that I have an obligation to grow and bring others up from within. 

0:11:54 - Vickie Hubbard
Oh, I love that it's so important to develop successors along the way. I love that story and I've heard so many similar stories from different guests that have been on this podcast regarding not necessarily. It's like being in the right place at the right time and then an opportunity being presented to you and even if you don't feel like you're prepared for it, you say yes anyway, you push through the fear and you do it anyway and then you realize on the other side that wow, what a great fifth and what a great growth opportunity. And I just love to hear that. I love hearing that. Thank you for sharing. In your third role as general counsel, any aspirations, any aggressive goals that you have for yourself where you would like to see the legal department maybe in the next five years?

0:12:46 - Kim Cuccia
Yes, and don't give my team a break by telling them that they have five years. I personally have so many aspirations for our department. Growing up in this department and with a lot of the folks on this team and seeing how we support the organization, I know how great we can be. I think we are great. It's about going from good to great, great to greater, and so I routinely talking with my team and saying what if this, or how about this, or what have we thought about things this way? And so, what I really enjoy is when we're in a conversation. My leadership team are even more broadly somebody has an idea, somebody else feeds into it and it improves, and then somebody else makes it even better, because I think that's how we get to the best approach. 

But in the spirit of actually working towards reaching specific aspirations, we are very highly focused on two things: one, increasing diversity in the legal profession on my team, within the law firms that we use and supporting diverse law firms. And second, finding ways to do our work smarter, better, faster and for a lower overall cost. And why are we focused on those things? Diversity in the profession let's baseline it. I talked a little bit about this at NAMWOLF. The reality is that, despite growing diversity in the United States, the legal profession lags in the United States demographics significantly. People of color are represented at 50% in the profession compared to the demographic, and women are represented at 80%, and so that's one of the drivers for me in the need to focus on diversity in the profession and then about doing the work better. I want to ensure that every dollar we spend as a cost center to the organization is a dollar best spent. 

0:14:40 - Vickie Hubbard
Yes, yes, so I love that. So, and that is a great segue to supplier diversity. Before we delve into the benefits of utilizing diverse law firms and connecting the dots between supplier diversity and identified diverse law firms, let's just spend a moment talking about the value of supplier diversity programs. So of course, we know that the value of supplier diversity programs. It increases opportunities for diverse suppliers, it can be a benefit to corporations and law firms for better quality products and services. It can lower costs, it increases innovation and it can make an economic impact within the diverse communities we serve. 

And by investing in diverse suppliers, it also helps meet the needs of ESG initiatives, which I'm not sure many law firms and corporations connect that dot. But it does lean in to ESG as well. And it does not guarantee that diverse vendors will actually be awarded an opportunity, right, but it does give them that opportunity to have a seat at the table and to actually be seen in her, for them to be considered as a quality vendor for purchasing opportunities. So, with all of that I just shared, it's unfortunate that some still believe that supplier diversity is race-based and that utilizing diverse vendors requires ending partnerships with current vendors. So, Kim, how do we help our colleagues in legal and your colleagues in legal, because I'm not an attorney, your colleagues in legal to understand that supplier diversity is not a zero-sum game. 

0:16:31 - Kim Cuccia
Yeah, you're right, it's not a zero-sum game. This is a place where we all can win. Supplier diversity is not about excluding anyone. It's about two things from my perspective: one, opening the supplier pipeline, making sure that we are all aware and informed of the services that are available to us by any and all, and creating a fair environment to compete, because, said extraordinarily talented, diverse service providers. And second, it's about creating more room at the table, more room for different perspectives, more room for people with different backgrounds. It's not race-based, but generally allowing for people that have historically been underrepresented race, neurodiversity, gender, all of it to have a seat at the table, and that's one thing that, in my role as General Counsel and using my voice as General Counsel, I have felt pretty passionate about is letting the world know people of all kinds are welcome at my table and within my team, and so what I find is that, when I think about it as inviting more people to the table, it then becomes about community, about networking, about relationships, about more ideas, more unique ideas and improved ideas. 

As lawyers, we solve problems. If the answer was always obvious, our jobs would be easy. We don't get to answer the easy questions. We get the hard questions that have factual distinctions and nuances, and so I need people of different backgrounds and perspectives to help us, as a department, provide better overall advice when those unique distinctions and nuances happen, so we can provide the best overall advice to the business, and it's my job to make sure that I create an environment with my team where that can happen when I'm in the room and when I'm not in the room, to make sure that we're bringing the best again, the best legal advice, to the organization. 

0:18:36 - Vickie Hubbard
I love it. So you mentioned earlier that one of the, not necessarily aspirations, but something that you're actively working on that, of course it can be an ongoing aspiration as well is to increase the number of diverse owned law firms that support my sources efforts, and so with that, I'd like for us to lead into your legal department on my sources of legal departments, support and focus on DEI. You shared with me in a previous discussion that NiSource has been focused, your legal department has been focused on diversity, equity and inclusion for the past 10 years, and I'd love to know how, like, share with us the different wonderful ways that you all have been forging ahead as a relationship with DEI. 

0:19:22 - Kim Cuccia
Yeah, that's outstanding, and so our supplier diversity focus at the top of our organization, currently starting with our CEO at NiSource has helped really breathe oxygen into our longstanding diversity efforts within the legal department. We have a deep history in my source legal focusing on diversity and, just like you said, for the last 10 years at least, that was initiated by one of our prior General Counsels, Carrie Hyman, who's more recently retired, and what I have found is that and let me step back for a moment Some of the things that she did was regularly or regularly, annual performance meetings with the law firms is talking about the demographics, the types of folks that are working on our matters. How are we recruiting them? How are we supporting them? Because it's, from my perspective, it's not just about the hiring, it's not just about who you're bringing in the door, but it's making sure you're creating an environment where folks want to stay and feel supported and can advance in all of those things. 

So, we've been looking at our numbers and having discussions and talking about support, exposure, all of those things for a number of years, and what I find is that and having been here for about 15 years is that the support at the top of the house. 

Broad-based support makes this topic meaningful and relevant in our business conversations, and a fellow leader once told me what interests my boss fascinates me. So, when at the top of the house, you're making something important and a priority, you're getting attention, that's becoming more important, and that was an example that a prior general counsel at the organization set for me. So, programs and activities set aside for a moment. When we look at our corporate numbers, we're passionate about knowing our numbers, knowing the representation that we have in the organization and also with our suppliers compared to the communities in which we operate. And we talk about recruiting efforts and we talk about pools and different sources for recruiting, and then we talk about not just within our walls but also with our service providers and our legal services is how we and they have created environments. That discussion has been happening here for a very long time. 

0:21:45 - Vickie Hubbard
I could listen to you go on and on. I could just let you roll the tape. Kim, keep going. That is such good stuff, okay, so how does your legal department go about identifying diverse law firms? We would make a transition into how supplier diversity can be a pathway for identifying diverse law firms, but how, at this particular time, does NiSource identify them? 

0:22:14 - Kim Cuccia
So, the way that we identify law firms diverse owned law firms today is largely through our partnership with NAMWOLF. So, basically, how have we engaged or how have we identified? 

0:22:28 - Vickie Hubbard
Yeah, how have you both? How have you identified and engaged? 

0:22:34 - Kim Cuccia
Yeah. So, what I would say is we have not done this enough specific to diverse owned firms in the past. One of the biggest focuses that we have had in the legal department for years is focusing on diverse timekeepers spend. So, I am committed and focused and I've said this through my pledge through LCLD is increasing diversity in the profession in total. And so, I've started that focus and picked up where my predecessors left off, focusing on timekeepers. And I mentioned that because I think many law departments find themselves, and even law firms, in that situation where you're looking at your own numbers, you're looking at timekeepers that you already have exposure to and I think, for corporate departments, legal departments, that it's largely because many companies set an outside council panel and you intend to have that panel in place for a period of time where we endeavor to have good scale, leverage our scale, excuse me and have optimal pricing. 

So what we did, with some enhanced leadership, focus on diversity, partnering with our procurement organization and really understanding sort of our diverse supplier strategy coming into 2023, excuse me we opened our entire book of legal work and, in the interest of our focus on increasing diversity in the profession, we put together a steering group, a handful of folks in the legal profession that we viewed as my team excuse me, viewed as diversity thought leaders, economic inclusion thought leaders. Some of these folks we've had exposure, working with a nice source, some of them were not, we just knew of them. And so, two folks on my team, Andre Wright and Valerie Beaumont, pulled together sort of a steering committee, so to speak, to talk about hey, we're gonna open our book of work, how should we think about increasing diversity in the profession? And the discussion very quickly turned to diverse law firm suppliers, and so they discussed ideas and things that they wanted us to keep in mind as we approached refreshing our panel of firms. And the discussions, like I said, very quickly turned to taking a hard look at NAMWOLF and an awareness of NAMWOLF and an awareness of highly qualified, diverse firms that simply were not on our radar. They're out there. We didn't know about them. People in the position of signing the retention letters did not know about them, and so you have to start somewhere right, and so this year we started with one let's show up at NAMWOLF. 

A handful of my leaders showed up at the meeting earlier in the year and then I was asked and Leslie extended just a wonderful and gracious invitation to come to the annual meeting and I went to almost the entire annual meeting. I tried to be a little bit incognito until I showed up on the general council panel. Then people found out who I was. But I wanted to truly experience what NAMWOLF was all about and what the culture was about. And so, one, it was about showing up, and two, once we were there, it was about getting to know some of the firms, determining if there's a good fit for any of our work. And that did not start and end with a meeting. The meeting is a great place to start the conversation, but we are very much committed to leveraging the NAMWOLF network, the association, the firms, and that has been - we are open to all diverse firms. NAMWOLF has been the biggest avenue, I think, for us to get exposed. 

0:26:21 - Vickie Hubbard
That's great. Understood, understood. So back to supplier diversity, because we're making our connection here. So, supplier diversity, supplier inclusion - many, many firms, organizations, are making a shift to the title of the program to be Supplier Inclusion for the listeners to follow along. In the recent response to the Supreme Court affirmative action ruling, what would you say to corporations and law firms who are now, just based on that decision, considering discontinuing their supplier program? 

0:26:59 - Kim Cuccia
Yeah, thank you for asking that question because I would say now is the time to double down. Diversity is facing adversity and from my perspective, now is the time to lead from the front and make sure that folks that have historically been underrepresented know that they are supported. It is true that it's more challenging in light of the Supreme Court decision, but how you can continue supporting diversity and economic inclusion, that's the key. It comes down to how you go about doing it. You absolutely can continue to advance diversity, as about the how and the legal standard has not changed in any of this under Title VII for private employers, it's the level of scrutiny, but I think we need to be mindful of that. So, what I would say to companies is to be informed as in-house counsel, be informed, consult with outside counsel, get a review of your programs and practices and just make sure that they are meeting today's level of scrutiny, absolutely. 

0:28:07 - Vickie Hubbard
And so, what are your thoughts regarding risk assessments? And for those who are unfamiliar with risk assessments, a risk assessment is the process of identifying what hazards exist or may appear in the workplace and how they may cause harm, and to take steps to minimize harm. So, as it relates to supplier diversity programs, do you think there's any value, Kim, in risk assessment? 

0:28:30 - Kim Cuccia
I think it's the premium value. I think every single organization should be doing a risk assessment right now, and we at NiSource routinely review and advise on all of our programs supplier diversity, economic inclusion, amongst other company programs and initiatives that are in place for a variety of different purposes. And the purpose of those types of risk assessments, as you mentioned, Vickie, is, from my perspective, to make sure that legal is helping, ensure that the company is doing the right things, the way it intends to do those things, and to mitigate risk and to make sure that we're complying with the law. So, specific to supplier diversity, we at NiSource have a goal to achieve 25% of our spend with diverse suppliers by 2025. And we're committed to opening the pipeline of diverse suppliers so that they can compete again on equal footing with all suppliers. 

But a lot of that is awareness, its relationships, its education. So, the big picture for us is we don't have any changes to our program or to our goals. We don't. There's just no changes with respect to that, but the day-to-day details on how we operate to achieve those goals, those are the types of things that you would look at in consistent with a risk assessment, and the environment that we're all operating in today informs how we do that. But again, it's no different for us as to how we review all of our initiatives. But what I would say to any organization, including law firms for that matter, is to take a very good look at your diversity programs and just make sure that you're aware of kind of the dos and don'ts and how much risk you're assuming. 

0:30:16 - Vickie Hubbard
Great, I appreciate that, and so I think I heard that you shared. No changes, but this time have been made to the actual supply diversity program within NiSource, but you're just doing a deeper dive on how to base to the policies associated with it. 

0:30:31 - Kim Cuccia
Yeah, that's exactly right. Because I think about very public examples of law firms Big Law law firms of Perkins, Cooley and Morrison Forrester and lawsuits that are targeting or targeted their scholarship and fellowship programs. Historically, applicant criteria was targeted to diverse candidates. The very specific practice was challenged and both of those firms settled broadening that applicant criteria to any and all, as opposed to just historically underrepresented peoples. So that's what I mean when I say the scrutiny has changed. So many of those types of programs in the past were of no concern or consequence to anyone and now they're under review for reverse discrimination. 

0:31:18 - Vickie Hubbard
Got it, got it. Thank you for that. So, when we think about supplier inclusion and I've planted that seed a couple of times throughout this discussion and now here we are and I stated it's what I stated and it's what JSL believes, but I wanna know if you're in agreement with it. Yeah, what are your thoughts regarding supplier diversity or supplier inclusion programs being a pathway, not the only pathway of course, but a pathway for diverse owned law firms to be considered as well for outside council opportunities?

0:31:52 - Kim Cuccia
So now that you've hit me with it two or 30 times, Vickie, I really am embracing and I actually I really like that terminology better, because that is when I think about sort of the way I think about diversity in general. It's not excluding, it's inviting more people to the table, it really is supplier inclusion. And so, I think that when you think about general supplier inclusion programs and procurement programs in your organizations for folks who are in house or even in firms, they can be particularly helpful in the legal space, especially one if you don't have any diverse law firms in your portfolio or if you're looking to expand your diverse suppliers in the legal fields. I think the key and the challenge is knowing diverse law firms exist, knowing where to find them and the services that they can provide and other legal service providers, for example, like JSL. So for my team in legal, we've been very focused on diversity already and, frankly, a little bit longer than the many of the other functions in the company. But our focus, like I mentioned before, it was very much from a timekeeper standpoint and less than the actual firms or a supplier standpoint within legal. So it was our corporate sort of supplier inclusion program that got us thinking, and one of my colleagues in our department who introduced me to Leslie Davis, the CEO of the NAMWOLF, who you had on your podcast series last, I think. So tough act to follow, by the way. Oh, you're doing a wonderful job, thank you. But my eyes were opened to a pipeline of resources that I didn't even know existed. 

So I think, no matter how your sourcing is, the logistically managed, whether it's within your legal function or if it's through your sort of supplier or procurement function, you can learn from your procurement teams and look to your peers, look to your procurement teams to build relationships, help expand your network so that you know what's out there. 

And that was one of the big blind spots I think that we had, and part of it was we weren't looking, and then the other part of it was is that once we sort of started looking, we were fortunately were able to find it very quickly. 

Another big way I think supplier inclusion and or procurement teams can really help legal inclusion efforts is how you bring on and how you onboard new providers, whether they're diverse or not, because part of it is finding the resources and finding the match, but for me, I also want to ensure that those matches are successful and so our procurement teams are doing that day in and day out across the organization. So once we've made supply hiring decisions, we do leverage and I do think that our team learns a lot and leverages good practices and learnings and change management, for example, and setting up new service providers for success. I think that is particularly important for diverse suppliers and because I think that there's frankly, whether we like to admit it or not, a lesser of a tolerance for diverse suppliers to fail. So the enabling once they're on board, I think is really key and procurement can help with that. 

0:35:08 - Vickie Hubbard
Excellent, keep going, Kim. No, just kidding. You're saying everything that JSL has been saying for a very long time, so I thank you for that. With diverse owned law firms within nice stores. Like we really want to encourage diverse owned law firms to consider her going an RFP route for attending large conferences, such as maybe, WBENC, in which there is an opportunity for them to actually meet and greet with individuals from supplier diversity to communicate their services, because what we observed, what JSL observed this past year at WBENC, is that there was a legal presence there which is not something that we had consistently observed in the past, but that shows a lot of I won't say growth, but awareness of how legal can be introduced from a supplier diversity perspective or platform. And so we really want to encourage diverse owned law firms to really take every avenue that they can to ensure that corporations know that they are around right. As it relates to your experience and my source's experience with diverse owned firms, what will you say are some benefits of working with diverse firms? 

0:36:30 - Kim Cuccia
Yeah, I think the benefits a couple of things here, Vickie. One I want to be fully transparent that we are new on this block and I'm not shying away from that because I, you know, I talked to Leslie a little bit about this and she's like that's fine, you're starting, that's great, you're now here and we want you here. And so, one, we are new with respect to integrating diverse owned firms into our portfolio with an intention within the last year. So, I think don't be embarrassed by that If you haven't been intentional about it. Think about it and be intentional about it going forward. 

Second, in my relatively short time in this space, I find diverse firms and I met a number of folks at NAMWOLF probably more people than I've ever met in three days in my entire life. But I find diverse firms to be very quick to say what they are good at and what they are not, and they are extraordinarily happy and willing to refer you to another diverse firm if it's not a strength of theirs. That is really important to me. It's one of kind of my core characteristics to know that I have got partners who are not just in it for themselves but are in it for others. And what I have found about, in particular with NAMWOLF. But in the diverse community it's about lifting everybody up together, and so I get the sense at times working with some of the larger law firms, that big law doesn't ever really want to say they don't do something. Well, they always have somebody that can do something and many times that's extraordinarily helpful. But there have been times where I sort of have to figure out is it the right type of talent or background or experience that I want? And I have found that diverse firms in certain circumstances actually may be better suited for certain types of roles. 

So maybe a third is that I think there's a lot of folks who are, if you're looking for highly credentialed lawyers, there are a lot of folks at diverse firms that my team has coined and I think they got it from NAML as big law refugees. 

There are some highly credentialed, extraordinarily competent, diverse folks at law firms and at diverse own law firms, and that's what it's all about. The other thing is that so you take those highly credentialed people but you also have new folks. They're bringing in new folks to bring in younger folks. They're bringing in folks in different practice areas and teaching them new things because they don't have the resources the big law does, so we've got fewer folks that sometimes need to be doing more things. I have always been historically before we've had sort of a diverse inclusion strategy within a legal department for service providers. I've always been happy to train new people on our account and I've welcomed training new talent on our account or letting folks expand their portfolio personally on some of our matters, and I think that there may be a special opportunity for partnership between nice horse and diverse firms to get some just generally folks more exposed on energy law. 

0:39:36 - Vickie Hubbard
Excellent, excellent. What I shared earlier regarding supplier diversity and some myths that you and I worked to dispel one of them was around. You know it's working with a diverse vendor, supplier, diverse own law firm Does not mean that you are required to get rid of the partnerships or the big law firms that you've worked with for years. That's definitely not what I'm suggesting and it's not what you're suggesting either, and I think it's important for our listeners to understand, especially someone that might be within a big law firm, that's listening within a legal department. You know there is opportunity and, based on what you said, Kim to one of your points. You know maybe there is a certain area that a corporate legal department needs from their partnering big law firm and there's a gap there. There is an opportunity for them to reach out and identify a very strong, well-niched, diverse firm to support them and maybe, under a tier two partnership with that big law firm, also support a corporate legal department. What do you think about that? 

0:40:47 - Kim Cuccia
Yeah, no, I love it. It's like you were reading my mind, Vickie, because I don't get caught up personally in tier one versus tier two. I want to see overall diversity and support for diversity in the profession. So, whether it's big law partnering with a diverse firm or a smaller firm because there are some diverse-owned firms that are getting to be quite large so, whether it's direct sourcing of the diverse firm or partnerships, I don't care how it happens. I just want to see more diverse people have avenues and pathways into the profession and for the profession to be seeding, in cultivating an environment where that's happening. And so, what you said is spot on, in fact, because we look at our numbers. So, this is not quotas, this is just talking metrics and looking at numbers. 

We had a very recent experience where one of our law firms in the Midwest, that is a small law firm, has had trouble keeping diverse talent because of geographically, where they're located, and so we look at the numbers. 

We have the conversation, and in this year's conversation they came in and said, hey, we would like to partner with a diverse firm. 

What do you think about that? Because we've been trying to attract talent, we're not always able to keep it, and I, through my network or my bar association, have become familiar with this firm, and I would like them to take a share of this work and to partner with them, because we think together we can provide a better value for the company. That would never happen if we were not talking about the issue, if we were not talking about the demographics, if we weren't talking about you know kind of who is in the profession, you just wouldn't even have those types of ideas come up. And so to me, it's not about making a requirement. It's about truly creating grassroots people coming to realizations on their own that, hey, I'd like to have different perspectives, I'd like to have folks from different backgrounds be a part of my team and to have an outside firm bring that to the table. That is a reflection of the 10 years of conversations that we've been having. 

0:43:07 - Vickie Hubbard
I love that. I love that and I also, you know, I believe that there is power in the corporate legal department actually steering that conversation with their partnering firms, just to spark the conversation and impress a point. Then you know there's an opportunity for you to engage and as you work to meet our needs, you can also meet your own diversity, equity and inclusion needs as well by working with diverse firms, and so I thank you for that. I appreciate that, and listeners take that advice, those that are in those positions of influence. There is an opportunity there. I've read that you are active with the Leadership Council on Legal Diversity, LCLD, and of course, we talked about NAMWOLF and how you have begun partnering with NAMWOLF as well. We would like to encourage more legal professionals within corporate legal departments to get involved in such organizations. So how has your involvement benefited you? What you say personally, our professional. 

0:44:13 - Kim Cuccia
Yeah, thanks for that question, Vickie. The benefit is allowing us in the profession to expand our networks in a meaningful and authentic way. Whether you're in-house or at a firm, when you show up in these types of spaces you are meeting other in-house folks, you're meeting other consulting and other associations in your meeting law firms and lawyers that are in the firms. So, for me it's the benefit of community and that it's seeding the community. 

For me, that is seeing the same issues and the same problem statement that historically underrepresented communities are underrepresented in the profession and as a member of the profession, I wanna make sure the profession is very accessible to everyone. And so, whether you have a desire to do something about it, I think when you tend to participate in LCLD, expose yourself to NAMWOLF, you're around folks that help you understand different ways to influence things in a positive way, where you're not turning people off. It's about again it comes back to you're inviting people in. You certainly don't want to be viewed as exclusionary it doesn't mean you get it right all the time and these types of environments you're going to make those observations. You can talk about what you've done well, what has not gone well and, frankly, to be educated on the issues. It's a way for me where we can support each other as a profession, and that's the biggest benefit for me. 

0:45:46 - Vickie Hubbard
Love it. For those of you who are not familiar with the Leadership Council on Legal Diversity, also referred to as LCLD, it is an organization of more than 400 corporate chief legal officers and law firm managing partners who have pledged themselves to creating a diverse US legal profession. Their action programs are designed to attract, inspire and nurture the talent in society and within their organizations, thereby helping a new and more diverse generation of attorneys ascend to positions of leadership. So, with your exposure to the different organizations that are passionate about DEI, and then keeping in mind diverse owned law firms, is there, like, if you could weigh the wand, like, is there an organization that maybe has not been established yet that would also - so, we spoke about NAMWOLF as a relation to identify diverse owned law firms. Is there another gap out there that you think an organization should be, could be created to actually assist the diverse owned law firms? 

0:47:00 - Kim Cuccia
So we talked about this and I've been thinking hard, because I hate to make suggestions and then, you know, have it be something. That's just doing something for the sake of doing something. So, I have two thoughts on this topic. One is any organization that can serve as an enabler to bring companies and firms together with diverse firms as an opportunity. Larger organizations are busy. Sometimes they don't have time to vet and screen, and through meeting you at NAMWOLF, you know, I became aware of jurisADVANCE, which is a newer service offering that does just that. It's it helps bring companies and firms together with the diverse firms in that type of community and in a screening and kind of matchmaking service. 

The second thing that I think is really, really important is having the right leaders of influence leading these existing organizations. Leslie Davis, Robert Gray, are tremendous advocates for their organizations NAMWOLF and LCLD respectively and having gotten to know them a little bit, I think the way in which they go about advocating for diversity, with the right balance and perspective, in a way that engages and is embraced by folks that believe that there's work to be done here, it doesn't turn away others who may not believe that there's a tension or work to be done. I will tell you. It's really, really incredible to me. So, what one of them calls, I answer the phone and I think those are the types of leaders that we need leading these organizations, because they will advance, help us advance quietly, more loudly, depending on what the need is and the audience in which they're in front of. 

0:48:40 - Vickie Hubbard
Yes, definitely. NAMWOLF is a great resource to identify highly experienced diverse on law firms. As I mentioned earlier, JSL is a longstanding business partner of NAMWOLF. Other associations that our listeners may want to consider when seeking our diverse on law firms include the NGLCC's NLIC it is the National Gay and Lesbian Chamber of Commerce's National Legal Industry Council, the NLIC. In addition to NLIC, our listeners might want to consider Women Owned Law, as well as the Association of Law Firm Diversity Professionals. 

This has been a wonderful conversation. I feel like there's still so much for us to discuss. I really do. I think that we touch the surface of a lot of information here and I feel like, in my opinion, our listeners may want more. They may hunger for more, more, more insight and more guidance from you, and it's so important that we have thought leaders on our shows, such as you can, that can really plant those seeds and stimulate thought, stimulate conversations that will stimulate action, and so I appreciate you taking the time to speak with us today Before we actually close any parting thoughts, anything that you feel we're spending enough time discussing that you want to lean into a little more before we end today. 

0:50:10 - Kim Cuccia
Yeah, thanks, Vickie, and first of all it's been my absolute pleasure to spend time with you today and have this discussion. I just hope that it creates catalysts for other discussions and thoughts for other folks to take back, and I always come back to just to kind of leave folks with anything. I come back to the statistics. Compared to US demographics, minorities are underrepresented in the profession by 50%, women by 20%, and as a general counsel, I feel like I have an obligation to know these statistics because I truly believe that having a rounded out team of advisors from people with different backgrounds, bringing broad perspectives, allows us to provide the best overall legal service. So, if folks are not aware of their numbers, look at your numbers. It's never too late to start there's no time like the present and just be deliberate and thoughtful about kind of the direction you're taking your organizations. 

0:51:12 - Vickie Hubbard
Excellent. Thank you, Kim. I appreciate you. I invite you back to our show at some point, maybe next year, if you can squeeze in some time. I do invite you and I thank you. I really appreciate you. Thank you for being so quick to say yes, and I believe that this particular episode is really going to reach a lot of listeners. I really do, and so I thank you listeners. I thank you for tuning in to another episode of Not your Average DEI Podcast and we will chat soon.